July 19, 2004
Interview with Adrian Nastase, Prime Minister of Romania
Video (RealPlayer format) of the talkshow
CHARLIE ROSE: Adrian Nastase is here. He is the prime minister of Romania . He is also the leader of the ruling Romanian Social Democratic Party and former foreign minister. He will meet with the United Nations Security Council tomorrow. Romania holds the presidency of the council this month. The prime minister will also meet with President Bush and members of the administration on Wednesday in Washington . I am pleased to have him at this table for the first time. Welcome.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Thank you very much.
CHARLIE ROSE: Great to have you here.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Thank you very much.
CHARLIE ROSE: You had two things that have occurred since in Romania`s recent history. One, you joined NATO. What difference does that make, other than giving you a kind of protective shield?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, it was very important because for the Romanians becoming members, Romania becoming a member of NATO, it was, you know, a -- putting an end to the Cold War. After the Yalta agreement, Romania remained outside the Western family. And Romania had even in the last years a status of -- an ambiguous status, a kind of a buffer zone between east and west. Once Romania ...
CHARLIE ROSE: Similar to Yugoslavia .
ADRIAN NASTASE: Yes, yes, to a certain extent. Once Romania became a member of NATO, now this status changed completely, so we are very proud to be again a member of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) family.
CHARLIE ROSE: And then you will become a member of the European Union?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Very soon. I think that we are in a very good process of becoming a member of the European Union in 2007. This year we hope to close all chapters of negotiations, and to sign the agreement with the European Union early in 2005.
CHARLIE ROSE: No doubt in your mind you`ll be able to meet all the requirements necessary to be a member?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, the European Union, it`s not a country where -- it`s not an association or an organization where you enter once that everything gets in order, once everything gets perfect. It is an association where you can speed up some of the things that you every -- any way you have to do. That`s why while some of the negotiations are concentrating on commitments, but while that we are very, very happy, but the process of modernization of the country goes hand in hand with the process of negotiations with the European Union. And we have made huge, huge progress in the last years, not only in economic terms, not only in macroeconomic indicators, but it was very important that we succeeded to eliminate the visas for the Romanians who travel in Europe . They could learn about the values of Western world. They could get more money to come back and invest in small business.
Most of our youngsters now can travel in Europe and outside Europe to various universities and come back afterwards. So it is a process, an accelerated process of modernization. That`s why the European Union, it`s important for us. And while it is as important as NATO.
CHARLIE ROSE: You have 700 troops in Iraq , 700 soldiers.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Seven hundred and sixty.
CHARLIE ROSE: Seven hundred and sixty, I`m corrected. Why did you make that decision when that war was controversial in Europe ? And Spain of course made the decision to send troops. France didn`t. Germany didn`t. Russia didn`t.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Perhaps we understood in Romania better than in other countries that while in Iraq , and especially after events of September 11, in Iraq there was a kind of a black box for terrorism. And it was important to deal with that. While some of the people decided that they can leave that area as a kind of in a standby world (ph) situation, but I think it was a good decision to deal in a very direct way with that.
Perhaps I am biased, because in 1990 and 1991 as a foreign minister, and when Romania was, well, a member of the Security Council, I chaired an important meeting when the U.N. decided to address the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq . Since then, well, the monitoring system has been put in place in order to control some of the developments, the negative developments in Iraq .
Now, I think that the decision was correct one. And, well, after some time, perhaps we can see that now the political solution is more important than the military -- the military strategy. That`s why I`m very glad that the Security Council passed an important resolution on Iraq. I`m very happy that, well, the transfer of sovereignty has been -- has taken place recently, and the interim government in Iraq is doing the right things in a transition period. Well, we want to transfer from Romania the wisdom, if you can call it wisdom, of the period after the dictatorship in Romania ended.
CHARLIE ROSE: Which is the question I began with early on in this conversation. The notion of...
ADRIAN NASTASE: Exactly.
CHARLIE ROSE: ... how you deal with coming out of the throes of a dictatorship.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Exactly.
CHARLIE ROSE: And what experience you have or what lessons you have that might be significant to them.
ADRIAN NASTASE: I think -- I think it can be very significant for them, because it`s clear that you have to create a model to which you give the ownership of the political decision to the Iraqi people. Though in Romania , we have created a kind of an assembly which for two years drafted the new constitution. And since then, we had four electoral tests. Well, in some of them, we won; in some of them we`ve lost. There was a transfer of power through the elections in Romania every time from one party to another. And we`ll have another one at the end of this year. But it was important for the people to know that they can decide.
And I think this is the major lesson which can be transferred to Iraq . And I have been asked in -- well, previously after the, well, the Spanish decided to withdraw their troops why Romania does not do the same thing. And I said, look, you cannot after bringing, well, a sick plan (ph) in a hospital starting an operation, and then telling him, look, we have been wrong, you might have needed an aspirin, and then leave the hospital and leave the patient on the bed in the hospital. It won`t work.
So we have to go ahead with the political solution, well, with the cooperation with the U.N. and the Security Council. I think that we cannot say, well, the Americans have a problem, let them, well, continue to have troubles there. Well, it is our common problem. Iraq might become a very serious problem if we don`t succeed to understand that a wise political decision is needed, and we have to contribute, all of us.
CHARLIE ROSE: What do you think the likelihood of chances -- what do you think the chances are it will work out OK? That it will become a stable, democratic and in their own form, society?
ADRIAN NASTASE: This is not wishful thinking. I`m sure that this can be done. I am -- I was impressed with the transfer of sovereignty. I was very glad to see in the NATO Istanbul summit that, well, the beginning of consensus inside NATO started on, well, training the police troops from -- in Iraq . And I`m very glad to see that most of the people now understand that building peace and stability means also reconstruction of the economy in Iraq.
So the people there had a name for their enemy. It was Saddam Hussein. After he was catched (sic), and, well, the frustrations remained. And I went a couple of months ago in Iraq . I flew with a helicopter over the southern part of Iraq . I was very, very sad to see, well, that there is almost nothing there in terms of economy. It`s like the medieval times. And well, I can imagine all those people who are in the southern part at least have suffered while the cruel attitude of Saddam Hussein, now are still frustrated. They want solutions very, very quickly. And if you don`t give them the ownership for the decision, they shall direct their anger against American troops or the coalition.
CHARLIE ROSE: Occupation is never good for anybody.
ADRIAN NASTASE: No. If it`s occupation. If it`s, well, a partnership for the reconstruction, it makes sense, and this can bring positive effects.
CHARLIE ROSE: When you -- if you see the president and the secretary of state and the secretary of defense, all of whom you will see, suppose they say we need more troops. We`d like for you to double your contribution.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, I shall say that we have a lot of other possibilities to help. But we have to discuss about the various ways with which we can deal with that. But think it is important now not so much if we add, well, 10 or 100 more troops there. We can...
CHARLIE ROSE: That`s OK?
ADRIAN NASTASE: It is -- I think it`s if we -- this is -- this is not important. What we value -- added value might be on our side bringing our experience, our experts for creating the new institutions -- and we have several experts working on that. And I think it is also important for being involved, with our experience, with our companies in the reconstruction of Iraq . So once again, I don`t believe that at this time the military solution will be the most important one.
CHARLIE ROSE: How much, in saying that, that you think you probably have got enough troops there and that you would like to be able to contribute in an economic way or in other ways, how much of that opinion, decision, judgment, is a product of what you see as resistance on the part of the Romanians to the war and to Romania`s participation?
ADRIAN NASTASE: No, it`s not...
CHARLIE ROSE: It`s not a similar situation as you had in Spain?
ADRIAN NASTASE: No, not at all.
CHARLIE ROSE: No fear of terrorism striking and...
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, we have, all of us, to be aware that, well, terrorist strikes exist all over the world. But it`s not that. It is important to understand that Romania is contributing with more than 2,000 troops also in Afghanistan , in Kosovo, in other areas. So for a country like Romania , with the economic problems that they have, this is a major contribution, because you have three times more troops in order to replace them. So at least 6,000 troops are already engaged in these processes.
So it`s much more a problem of, let`s say, economic support. But also, it is in my opinion the need for looking for alternative, for complementary solutions, and I mentioned some of them.
CHARLIE ROSE: Right. The trial of Saddam Hussein. You`re a lawyer. A constitutional lawyer. You still teach occasional courses at the law school, I guess. Is this going to be the trial of the century?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, I can imagine...
CHARLIE ROSE: It`s a short century so far.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, it is a very difficult issue. It is a very difficult issue because...
CHARLIE ROSE: You give him a platform.
ADRIAN NASTASE: ... well, first of all, you have to define the legal ground. You have to decide if you engage, you start a process based on domestic issues, or let`s say, well, the public international law, well, crimes against humanity or peace and security.
So it`s a very difficult decision, first of all, to decide on which ground, legal ground you start, well, the process. And then, well, I can imagine that everyone will try to postpone the procedure. Because some great philosophers says that the most difficult thing in life is to make a choice, because you never know what could happen if you take the other alternative.
So I think making a choice, making a decision will be very, very difficult. That`s why I don`t want to think that, well, I don`t want to think of those who have to decide on this issue because...
CHARLIE ROSE: The issue of his what? What issue are you talking about?
ADRIAN NASTASE: This is the issue of the grounds on which he will have to be tried. It is very, very difficult. Because if you engage in a wrong direction, then you create a hero, or you create a frustration, or -- that`s why I think it will be indeed one of the most disputed decisions, legally at least, if not politically, in the rest of the century.
CHARLIE ROSE: It never came to that point in Romania -- well, no, in Romania .
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well...
CHARLIE ROSE: Ceausescu was killed by a firing squad, wasn`t he?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, a revolution cannot be judged with -- with existing constitutions. And, well, from the French revolution, we know that usually a revolution is done against the existing law. And well, the people are pushing (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They`re pushing for a new legal system. That`s why it`s very difficult to make assessments about decisions taken during the revolution.
CHARLIE ROSE: Would Romania in your judgment today, looking back, have been better off if he and his family had been brought to trial and put on trial in a public trial in Bucharest ?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, in terms of perception, in terms of legal system, yes. But otherwise, well, as we remember from that time, the period he was, well, hidden, there were a lot of terrorists and people killing innocent persons just because they thought that Ceausescu might come back. So now once that we are sitting in a comfortable place like here, we can make assessments about that time...
CHARLIE ROSE: It`s easy to make the judgment, but back then it was more difficult at the time.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Exactly. That`s why, well, I was not part of that decision, but I became foreign minister after a few months, after December `89. But nevertheless, I have to say, because I lived there in Bucharest during those days and weeks, it was a very tough and tense period. There was a lot of terrorism, a lot of killings, a lot of unclear situations. So only after Ceausescu and his wife disappeared from the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the public places and they have been executed, well, the things entered into another direction, and the process of construction started. Of course, well, looking backwards you can discuss about the way the process took place.
CHARLIE ROSE: As you were saying that, I was also thinking about the fact that there is the question of parties too, previous affiliations. You know, one of the big issues was what to do about the Ba`athist Party who had been the principal party of Saddam. And in the same case you had a lot of people who were previous members of the Communist Party in Romania who were given a chance to participate running the government.
ADRIAN NASTASE: This was one of my comments when I discussed about the follow-ups, the political follow-ups. In Romania , the communist Party was like -- was much more like a, say, a trade union, with four million members. Of course you cannot -- I mean, if you put all of them outside the political life afterwards or public life, it would have been very difficult to have driving force for change. So it was -- we are in Romania, we have a generation of transition, a generation which leave -- which was trying before `89, which is trying now to make the things, well, free and democratic, but I`m aware that only the youngsters will be -- those who are trained now -- will make the real changes in Romania and elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
Well, it is the same, I can imagine, in Iraq . The Iraq people who were a part of the Ba`athist Party just because otherwise they couldn`t have a job. So if you don`t understand the functioning of a society like this, it`s very difficult to reorient the processes of change.
CHARLIE ROSE: So -- and what did you do after the revolution about the army, people who were in the Romanian army? Did you just take out a few of the top people and make sure that you kept the army in place?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Well, it`s different. In Romania , the army was perhaps one of the major vectors of change. And the army didn`t accept to fire against the people who went in the streets.
CHARLIE ROSE: And that`s the reason the revolution succeeded in part.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Exactly. Well, the problem was much more with the intelligence and the security forces. So it was a little bit different than in Iraq .
CHARLIE ROSE: The army was more devoted to the state rather than to the person.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Exactly. And I think this was important, because the army created the factor of stability and the factor of continuation. And the environment in which the political process of change took place.
CHARLIE ROSE: Nice to have you on this program, and hear the experiences of Romania . And I should say, as I asked you before we started, you are not related to Ilie Nastase.
ADRIAN NASTASE: No, I`m not, but I`m a very close friend of him.
CHARLIE ROSE: Oh, you are?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Yes, indeed.
CHARLIE ROSE: Did you ever play tennis with him?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Yes, I did.
CHARLIE ROSE: You have played with him?
ADRIAN NASTASE: Yes. But, well...
CHARLIE ROSE: Did you win?
ADRIAN NASTASE: No. Of course not. Well, he asked me if you pass, well, a legal decision that you have to win, then OK, we have to implement. But he`s -- he`s fantastic.
CHARLIE ROSE: A proud citizen of...
ADRIAN NASTASE: And let me say that he was at some time the candidate of my party for the mayorship of Bucharest . Unfortunately...
CHARLIE ROSE: He didn`t win.
ADRIAN NASTASE: He didn`t win.
CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you for coming.
ADRIAN NASTASE: Thank you for inviting me.
CHARLIE ROSE: Prime Minister Nastase of Romania . Back in a moment. Stay with us.
